Simulating particles & liquid in a cyclone

[tyFlow]

It is impossible to guess what the issue is from vague screenshots...for any further help or debugging you'd need to post the scene file. Or you can send to support@tyflow.com for further assistance.

[JuhaHo]

Yet another tryout. tyFlow keeps on exploding all over the place. This has been made with the latest update.

Regarding the scene, I may not share any geometry. We just need to find the explanation this way.

   

[JuhaHo]

I have to bring this topic up again. I have been playing with the cyclone scene daily almost a year for now, but still won't be able to put this together in a way that would satisfy the client. Is it possible to build the tyFlow from scratch step by step? I have the scene and Phoenix simulation already working. Now I would need to set up the simulation. What would be the steps to do that?

I guess, first I need to click this icon. What's next?

   

[JuhaHo]

I got this. Then I obviously should open the Editor?

[tyFlow]

Please refer to: https://forum.tyflow.com/thread-3431-pos...l#pid11707

If you can't provide the original scene, I'd suggest creating a proxy scene with stand-in geometry that is closely matched to the original geometry, so the original geometry can simply be swapped in once the desired tyFlow setup is achieved.

[JuhaHo]

Thanks,

I cannot share the original scene. Actually I made preliminary simulations with simplified scene and then transferred it to my production scene - nothing worked. So I thought, maybe I should create all new system inside the production scene. So here's the next step. I think the particle amount would be suitable for this purpose. Should I start with 1/10 amount.

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Next I need to tell where the particles are being released, so I need to create, configure and place tyIcon to the scene and add Position Icon to the flow in the Editor?

[JuhaHo]

So next thing would be creating speed operator, I think.

Am I doing right so far? I would really need to get this working and wish someone could help with this.

So what's next, Rotation operator?

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So, I made a rotation operator.

At the moment particles are flying horizontally. Do I need to place a gravity operator, or how is that part handled in tyFlow?

I asked AI, but it wasn't very helpful: "tyFlow on 3ds Max -ohjelmistoon integroitu plug-in, joka mahdollistaa erilaisten virtausten ja simulointien luomisen. Painovoima on yksi tyFlow:n käytettävissä olevista voimista, jota voidaan käyttää esimerkiksi hiukkasten liikkeen ohjaamiseen. Painovoiman avulla voidaan simuloida esimerkiksi hiukkasten putoamista tai pyörimistä. Tämän lisäksi tyFlowsa on käytettävissä muitakin voimia, kuten kitka ja turbulenssi, jotka mahdollistavat monipuolisen simulointien luomisen 12."

The Smilie was generated ty AI

[JuhaHo]

I don't know if this is necessary, but I created Gravity force operator into editor. Can anybody explain how does "v" work? Where comes this value -15,077?

So far tyFlow has not yet exploded. Am I doing right?

Is it now the time to introduce shape operator to my system?

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Then I introduced shapes. I have modeled earlier some stones, which I've been using in many animations over the years. Anyway, I didn't find a setting for the density or mass of the stones. Do I need to have separate operator for that too, of how does this work?

When this is clear, I think it's time for the Phoenix FD connection.

Anyone?

[JuhaHo]

So I added the fluid force operator. It seems to have a tiny effect to particle stream, but not what I want. Does someone have any idea what the question marked things do?

[JuhaHo]

After Fluid operator, I think a Collision operator is required. How do You find my setup so far?

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And finally I'll add cache operator to the flow. Now everything should be fine and I can start simulation to see if particles will have destination moon this time.

[JuhaHo]

I made a few test renderings with my latest setup. They look awful, mostly because of particles that penetrate through the wall of cyclones and tanks. I think I might have overlooked this collision radius parameter. I have left it to default. Absolute. What would be the correct way to keep the particles inside desired volume? I'm now testing Shape radius parameter. Is that correct approach?

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I honestly thought, that paying subscription would enable some kind of support, but I was apparently wrong. There isn't such thing - or is there?

Are there any ideas on how to reach tyFlow support?

[JuhaHo]

I managed to get some results without exploding the whole system. This time the problem remains, that apparently tyFlow doesn't recognize the whole dimension of the particles. Even when they are visible the can be seen on outside of the container.

What is the correct way to tell tyFlow the dimensions of the particles?

[JuhaHo]

I'm beginning to get some results. However here's another issue for me. Particles are much heavier than the liquid. On attached screenshot, there's a red line on the bottom, where the bottom valve of this system is located. The liquid isn't moving on the downward pipe and so, nether the particles aren't. The idea is, that particles being heavy, should go down to the valve and fill the pipe to halfway up. When that's done, the bottom valve is opened and the particles are flushed down.

Now, How can I tell tyFlow, the particles should ignore the fluid force at certain level? Not all particles would go down. Those will continue with the fluid upwards and will be removed on next phase.

[JuhaHo]

For some reason after playing with particle age, the situation is like this. I wonder what makes the particles stack like this. There are these concentrations on the down pipe and they don't move. I have marked the level where I want to have the particles when the bottom valve is opened. I also wonder if the particles are making a blockage where tank is narrowing.

[JuhaHo]

Simple question: How would it be possible to have gravity in tyFlow simulation. My particles have bigger density than liquid has. When liquid is not moving, or moves slowly, particles should fall - like a rock to the seabed. In my simulation when liquid stops moving, particles stop too. That's not what I want.

Any ideas?

[tyFlow]

From your screenshot, your Fluid Force is overriding any other forces above it. If you want additional gravity, put the gravity force below the Fluid Force operator. Regular Force operators (where you've got your gravity assigned) are additive, so the force will be added onto the Fluid Force velocities.

[JuhaHo]

From  your screenshot, your Fluid Force is overriding any other forces above it. If you want additional gravity, put the gravity force below the Fluid Force operator. Regular Force operators (where you've got your gravity assigned) are additive, so the force will be added onto the Fluid Force velocities.

Thanks,

I tested this, but things became even worse.

What about these built-in forces? Should I enable those?

[JuhaHo]

Any ideas on how to enable gravity- and fluid forces simultaneously?

Again, my goal is to allow to move down when the liquid is not  moving. Now they stop moving if the liquid is not moving. That's not how stones are behaving when tossed to low viscosity fluid.

[JuhaHo]

Now what,

I have iterated to find correct gravity value. This value makes particles going down too slowly but the same time it's high enough to ruin the flow elsewhere.

Would it make any sense to have two gravity operators: one above and one below the fluid operator? Then I would just use the timing option to tell which one should be used at the given particle age.

I really need to have some progress with this. Anyone?

[JuhaHo]

It's not perfect - far from it, but I might actually put this to rendering queue.

Ideas are welcome.

[JuhaHo]

I really don't know what I'm doing wrong here, but now the scene is in state where the simulation crashes to desktop without CER report possibility.

Any ideas on how to continue with this?

[JuhaHo]

The issue here is that Fluid Force is blocking the gravity force when the fluid isn't moving. If You cast a stone into the water, in real world it sink and goes towards the seabed. In tyFlow world the water lifts the stone, when the water isn't moving. When the water is not moving, the stones are floating. The stones are sinking if the water has internal downflow.

Am I clear enough? Any workaround for this behavior?

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I could try disabling the Z influence, but particles will go up at some point. I only want, that the fluid doesn't hold particles when it's not moving.

[JuhaHo]

I got one idea, where I try this object test. My intention was to remove the Fluid force once the stones get near to the junk trap. Then the fluid force wouldn't prevent them from dropping to junk trap. Well, it doesn't work at all.

Can someone take a look, what I'm doing wrong here.

   

[JuhaHo]

I got one idea, where I try this object test. My intention was to remove the Fluid force once the stones get near to the junk trap. Then the fluid force wouldn't prevent them from dropping to junk trap. Well, it doesn't work at all.

Can someone take a look, what I'm doing wrong here.

I made another test with this approach and it didn't got any better. Could someone please explain how this should work? This one is a disaster.

[JuhaHo]

On the screenshot we see the operator that's ruining the flow. I tested all the combinations and also rotated the tyicon002 to see if the orientation would change anything. It changes from bad to worse. Could anyone explain what's going on?